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1

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 6:06am

What do you think of "reallife-free to play"?

Finland is planning to start a "reallife-free to play" which means everyone will get a basic income regardless of work or anything else
those who want more money still have to work but it should be enough to have a basic life in general

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…00-a-month.html

how do you think about that? would you like your country to do the same thing?

personally i would welcome this as it would be a great chance for everyone to be able to do what he can do best while COMPLETELY removing economic pressure (this underestimated stresssource is responsible for lots of "illnesses" ppl have nowadays)
this would cause more happy & healthy people which can be 100% productive without any more limits coming from the need of heaving a place to sleep, eat and other basic things...

of course it wont be a luxury life but as in a proper f2p game, it would be free to play, basic things are free while advanced / improved things would require more money

please discuss :)

2

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 10:29am

3

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 1:23pm

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Dude, that's offensive. :thumbdown:
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4

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 1:55pm

Achilles

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We have something similar in the UK though pays no where near as much as the 800 euro p/month that Finland are proposing, it's called Job Seekers Allowance here (JSA), it's something like £154 every 2 weeks and to qualify for the payments you must attend a 'meeting' every week to provide evidence of you actively seeking work. Of course there are other benefits that people can claim if they're physically or mentally unable to work (disability living allowance) though I'm not certain of how much money this benefit grants.

There's pro's and con's to a scheme like this.

The biggest issue with it that I can find is the encouragement of laziness. Having been to Finland numerous times myself I've found the cost of living to be higher than what it is in England but with a well planned budget I'm sure that 800 euro a month would be enough to live off month to month, maybe not well with a nice house, luxury items, decent food etc but I'm pretty certain it would be entirely possible for some, Those who aren't really bothered about the finer things.

Another issue that could possibly occur is the cost to the state, 46.7b Euro a year it's said to cost the state, this money will have to be gained back from somewhere else, A major portion of it will no doubt be re-cooperated from increasing tax. Tax in Finland goes from 6.5%-31.75% (In the UK 10%-45%) I don't agree with tax increases to give money to those who might not be seeking work, that said, even the employed would be receiving the payment so those in the lower tax bracket wouldn't be affected as much.

A good deal of the cost to state for the payments would be gained back due to the removal of all other benefit schemes which is good, people can't play the system like they can in the UK and get way more than they're entitled to. There's people here who have x amount of kids to get a cheap house from the council and get money paid for their kids, Tax credits, housing benefits, child benefits and others. It's possible to live a good life without ever doing a days work here which is just wrong. Removing all benefit schemes and giving a fixed monthly payout in my opinion is a brilliant idea and I'd welcome it on this alone.

I think overall a guaranteed monthly payment like this would generally encourage people to go out and find a job, even if it's at the lowest pay possible (16 500—24 700) it takes away a lot of stress and offers security of something to fall back on if for whatever reason someone were to lose their job or get laid off due to cuts. Excluding the lazy people though I'm sure this is a minority.

I'd like my country to do the same if executed in the right way. But it'd never happen here.
Achilles | Mage | Avarice
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5

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 2:16pm

IAmGroot

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More Government reliance, more slackers, more useless people.
No.
We already have enough lazy and useless people on welfare in America we don't need more.


6

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 2:35pm

I think overall a guaranteed monthly payment like this would generally encourage people to go out and find a job, even if it's at the lowest pay possible (16 500—24 700)

I think what would happen is exactly the opposite. "Minimum wage" job employers would have to step up and increase what they pay or else they could end up with nobody to work for them.

Having to actually get up every day to work is a huge hassle and discomfort. In many cases the difference in income would not be close enough to justify undergoing this hassle. If there's any positive effects to this kind of "free2play", it's this - less slavery happening.

7

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 5:21pm

Dude, that's offensive. :thumbdown:
What's offensive in this? Can you elaborate?

These are just some symbols of socialism. I like to name things as they are(or might become if noone stop this madness).
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8

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 5:49pm

Celinkabouh

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Well, 800 a month is like nowhere close to have a decent life in any of the major cities in Finland, or even some smaller cities. With that you may get a crappy shelter with some hobos living next to you and the absolute necessities to stay alive...it's a bullcrap idea from our retarded government just to make it seem like our economy is alright. Yes, I am from Finland. :thumbdown: Bye.

9

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 6:09pm

This news is not legit even if some 'legit' newspapers published this.

10

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 6:52pm

reeah19

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checking people every month is more costly than to give everyone this allowance. It's a socialist idea, but think at those who want to study,write or stay home with kids longer that stats thinks is ok. Also this creates jobs because they have what to spend. Those who work on minimum wage are kinda slaves... ( and there's Balkans where 40% of population can't afford basic needs).

Keeping low/no income -> less money to spend->less production->and back to not enough money.

Considering that fertility rate is going down the drain in Europe this could work. Now we are enough or more than jobs, but in 15-20 years it'll be a problem to find an employee.
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11

Tuesday, December 8th 2015, 8:31pm

Aionwen

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swiss was evaluating the possibility of this this year...

government in canada found out recently that its cheaper to give homeless peeps a house and welfare compared to crimeprevention and prosecution...
imo its a bit like hey its cheaper to have "free" slaves aka costumers paying for evry scrap and working in my factory (producing most stuff for waste deposit to prevent market saturation - makes me fell like busniss is lazy or lacks of ideas) then having real slaves and care for them...
btw i heard this was the reason for civilwar in america and abolition of slavery so the northern states got their missing factoryworkers... AND capitalism was developed by forcing peeps to work in factorys as cost for shipping over atlantic after owners complained that peeps prefer to do all their needed stuff in homework instead of buying it from them...
hail to the land of the "free" *hust*

in germany this stuff is called BGE (unconditional basic income) and its overdue in societies with some kind of claims for "humanity".
i guess in bible is a part were jesus is explaining the winegrower the concept of BGE
But the believe in "work" in germany is so constitutional, it will last many many years spreading the reasons and ideas of BGE throught the mainstreambrainwash.
the idea is good and all "arguments" against arent durable, the biggest problem is most peeps are conditioned the "old" way and not able to create their lives, ideas nor states with BGE or they are just resignated so they arent able to think alternativ to the common slavedrivercanon
the day this will be implemented in germany i will instantly sell all my shares and go to do something usefull like read out in kindergardens.

for some basic informations before diping into this topic i strongly recommend lecture like "The Continuum Concept" from Jean Liedloff, theres a little anekdote about an indian taken to wester civilization in childhood returning to his tribe and they need 5 years just to reconstitute his natural need for working for his own lifeincome in his own garden.
And stuff from Alfi Kohn like "No Contest: The Case Against Competition"

men are not free coz this is no free world anymore since a few hundred of decades and like all imprisoned animals they act not in there natural way.

work in our time is more a tool to organise property and to socialy force peeps and to obtain status quo of wealth and poverty.

imagin a world without dump jobs were peeps follow the creative and the good guys and not chiefs nor warmonger nor shareholdervalues.

More Government reliance, more slackers, more useless people.
No.
We already have enough lazy and useless people on welfare in America we don't need more.

better reliant to electable goverment then to nonelectable Owners.
slacking is the most developed form of living in the meaning of slacking not extremparasiting like the upperclass do and there arent "enough" peeps yet.
there are no useless peeps, at least they work as bad examples.

it'll be a problem to find an employee.

there is no problem to find an employee if evry1 is his own chef and btw nonchemical nonmono agrarindustrie would obtain more than enough work, just try it


ps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYTii98iVbc

one of my favorite quotes is from the Guru of the Beatles, he said something like this: "i told them, your society destroys you so, no help no enlightment will ever be possible for u, but they wont listen and so one day i just took the money...
PLS make Tekians playable race. fix shipcanons!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Aionwen" (Dec 8th 2015, 8:55pm)


12

Wednesday, December 9th 2015, 6:25am

Posts: 125

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Dude, that's offensive. :thumbdown:
What's offensive in this? Can you elaborate?

These are just some symbols of socialism. I like to name things as they are(or might become if noone stop this madness).


Using socialistic symbols in fine, but don't desecrate a countrys flag with them...
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13

Wednesday, December 9th 2015, 8:06am

Windstorm

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14

Wednesday, December 9th 2015, 5:33pm


:D :D :D

hilarious and accurate (no disrespect to the flag just saying the country going the comonist way).

the basic sallary for all seems like a good idea but we are not in utophia (guild :) ), this is the real world.

this has been tried in other places and failed misrably.

the problem is not the idea but human nature. eventually, after all the star dust of an execiting idea disappear, ppls will do whatever is good to them and their family. and by that I mean:

1. whoever is rich - he doesn't give a fck about extra 800 EU a month, cause it might cost him (now or eventually) a lot more in extra taxes to cover the huge cost of the plan. most of those ppl's will stay and some will leave to countries with lower taxe rate.

2. ppl's with average salary - i dont know if the extra taxes will effect them (prob) but some will think: "hey, i can quite my job and take part time job and be with my kids more/play allods more". this is the main negative effect of the plan. if a lot of ppl's will do it, it's an financial blow to the country.

3. ppl's that really need the state help. I understood that this plan is instead of country's other walfare. do you think that a guy in wheelchair that need additional help and cannot work, can handle himself with 800 EU a month?? the country will have to continue and support those ppl's also after the plan (like it should be). so eventually u'll have the plan + walfare.

4. slackers/novo afkers - "woot?? i can play allods all day long and live with my friends in their joint lair". as good as it sounds its really bad for the country. besides, giving cash to those ppl's is usually a mistake cause it won't necesarily goes to whatever u intended (like housing etc') but rather to smokes, gambling and such (omg, i'm so patriot now after my country bought me a lightning mount...).

also, raising the taxes to fund the plan will result in lesser global companies opening a branch in Finland or closing a operating branch, therefore loosing jobs...

my conclution:

1. walfare to ppl's who really need it permanantly.

2. temporary help for ppl's who need this. for example 6 months unempolyment salary, 75% of ur last salary (every 3 years or so slackers, u can't go work for 1 month then fly to amsterdam for another 6 months :rolleyes: )

15

Wednesday, December 9th 2015, 5:56pm

Gwiniel

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My point of view of this matter...

You say 800 € is a lot for free... with the current living costs in Finland, that's ridiculously small amount of money. I'd say that 30% of population would simply die to starvation and diseases caused by poor hygiene within few years, if we wouldn't have this "safety net". It's not about people being lazy, it's about not having a job. 8 out of 10 jobs Finland had within the past 10 years are gone - replaced either by automatic factories or the business have moved their production to cheaper "development countries" like Africa, Asia and India. We simply don't have work and our schools are over populated from high educated people that eventually end up sitting in their homes because they don't get work either.

There are a lot of small paying temporary jobs available that last few weeks to few months with minimum pays that are physically demanding and mentally draining. But if an unemployed person takes such a job in Finland, he/she will loose the unemployment benefit and the help money for rent payment is reduced significantly. In reality that means that by staying home you get about 800 € a month and by doing low paid, short time or part time job, you end up getting 500 to 600 € a month, if you are lucky. Then you have to file paperwork to social security every month for additional help calculated from lowest acceptable living standards and seeing how far away your income is from that and they pay the left over, which still doesn't even reach to the 800 € a month you get when sitting at home. Who in their right mind will voluntarily do that? Even 800 € a month is about counting every cent for what you can get and not starve.

I live in Finland and I have lived depending on social welfare money by KELA for people that are unemployed and looks for a job for 6 years now. It's not nice living, it's not healthy living but it's better than being homeless and look for food from trash bins. The unemployment benefit is 525 € per month. In addition to that I get another benefit to help with rental costs and in my case it's 295 € per month. In total that's 820 € per month for living. Now, let me explain why that isn't all a sweet life.

Professionals/scientist have calculated that 1 person in Finland should have a minimum of 400 € to food alone per month to secure healthy and balanced meals. After all mandatory costs (rent, water, electricity, internet, phone) per month, I'm down to 250 € a month to everything else which include food, clothes, hobbies, pets etc. And my phone bill is only 17 - 19 € a month.

Housing costs are the most expensive... In the town I live in: 1 room apartment varies from 350 to 550 € a month (25-45 square meters). Apartment with 1 bedroom, kitchen and living room is from 500 to 980 € a month (38-68 square meters). Apartment with 2 bedrooms, kitchen and living room is around 800 to 1300 € a month (65-87 square meters).

Then comes water and electricity which are roughly 30 - 45 € a month each.

Another major cost is food... with 250 € a month you'll be eating macaroni, white bread, cheap sausages, potatoes and minced meat 70% of your diet. You can afford some vegetables and fruits depending the season. If you can't pick your own berries during late summer, you won't have any as they are too expensive to buy. Trash food is cheaper than healthy so you are likely to pick to buy stuff that isn't healthy, start gaining weight like a baby whale and getting depressed because you are stuck in a never ending circle. You have to pay attention to all discounts and products that have expiring dates as they are -30%.

There's no chance of buying new clothes from stores so you are forced to search endless hours through flee-markets and second hand stores which I dislike so my entire wardrobe has like 6 pieces (doesn't include undies etc). Needles to say I no longer have clothes that are suitable for working in places where looks matter.

If you come from poor background, you don't have money to jump-start your life by trying entrepreneurship when you can't get a job otherwise. You don't have savings for tough times as you've always been forced to live from hand to mouth (expression meaning that all money has gone to basic surviving). You can't sell property because you have never had any. You can't sell a car, as you don't have one in the first place. You can't continue studying because you already have 1 study loan worth of 10 000 € which you can't pay back because you don't have a job and student's benefit is so small you can't live without a part-time job. And unless you are truly fit, you can't study the days and work the evenings without burning out both mentally and physically. (Which is what happened to me 9 years ago and from what I'm still recovering from.)

I'm thankful that I don't have to live and freeze to death on a street, that I have food and a warm home although I haven't worked in years. Otherwise Finns would be like Africans and Indians with the exception that we get -28 - -38 degrees Celsius during winters = death without shelter. Think about that before calling people lazy or a looser - it's not always a choice they could make.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Gwiniel" (Dec 9th 2015, 6:02pm)


16

Thursday, January 7th 2016, 9:11pm

Tomerant

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Bosnia :

- no job? "Ok, who cares... 0$ per month. You can aswell consider hanging yourself on nearby tree." I simply can't believe that some people here said they are geting like 500+ euros for being unemployed. I make 400 euros per month and I work my ass off, trust me. My paycheck is kinda ok here, ppl would kill to have 400 Euros per month here as majority works for even less.

Ohh.. and having a job here means you are badass too :) Survival is real here ^^ Bosnia is one fkn reality show.
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17

Thursday, January 7th 2016, 10:15pm

Bosnia :

- no job? "Ok, who cares... 0$ per month. You can aswell consider hanging yourself on nearby tree." I simply can't believe that some people here said they are geting like 500+ euros for being unemployed. I make 400 euros per month and I work my ass off, trust me. My paycheck is kinda ok here, ppl would kill to have 400 Euros per month here as majority works for even less.

Ohh.. and having a job here means you are badass too :) Survival is real here ^^ Bosnia is one fkn reality show.


Sounds like a place you want to gtfo of as soon as possible. Gives a nice, clear picture of how hell might look like.

18

Friday, January 8th 2016, 3:46pm

ah for ppl who didnt hear it yet this idea was bought and a F2P rearlifeserver opened :) its called germany just go there and you get everything for free :)

19

Friday, January 8th 2016, 9:22pm

Tomerant

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haha yea.... Germany is f2p, but than that makes Bosnia hardcore mmo with perma death :)
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20

Saturday, January 9th 2016, 4:38am

as for the communism / socialism:

in communist & socialist countries the government usually puts up a LOT of restrictions and other things which are far from beeing TRULY liberal
if you need welfare they compel you to even more things they want you to


granting a basic income however changes things; whatever you decide for your life - government no longer interferes with!
so socialism and communism could not be further away!


due to the amount is low for this country noone will be totally happy with it (well exceptions exist but most ppl prefer to have more than just the most basic things)
it will be more what it should be: making sure the minimum existence is possible for everyone...

this will permanently keep away situations like:
- becoming ill and faring to lose job -> lose income -> lose appartment
- you want to learn / study something but cant afford it (you will only have basic living but still you can study whatever you want and thus FULLY use your potential!)
also, it has other benefits:
- especially (young) parents can be sure they will be able to care for their children themselves and not having to put them into kindergarten at a ridiculously young age just for the sake of beeing able to gain a basic income
- old-age pension is secured
- buerocraty can be tightened as the whole complex which is responsible for welfare can be removed

keeping away economic pressure for most basic things will also make ppl more happy and thus they will be more healthy; this will take away a lot of unneccesary medical costs
there is a positive domino-effect...
if local population is healthy and eager to get children silly politicans can no longer come up with artificial arguments like "oooh we have such a low population we need moar immigrants"
this will again circumvent social tensions

ofc before introducing something like that its self-evident that borders must be closed in order to prevent getting flooded like germany is now...

ah for ppl who didnt hear it yet this idea was bought and a F2P rearlifeserver opened :) its called germany just go there and you get everything for free :)

but only if you are NOT from germany
local population there has to work for foreign criminals & rapists now :thumbdown:


Bosnia :

- no job? "Ok, who cares... 0$ per month. You can aswell consider hanging yourself on nearby tree."

hardcore survival mode, yeah 8|

Gives a nice, clear picture of how hell might look like.

germany also gives some nice idea about how hell could be:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…rn-Germany.html

Quoted

Witnesses described gangs of men who “hunted” women outside the night clubs of the city’s famous Reeperbahn neighbourhood.

...and there are MUCH more happenings like that atm, this is just the tip of the iceberg
and politicans look away on purpose

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